[vtkusers] [vtk-developers] Modularization, Context2D and Tcl

Wed Mar 28 18:07:12 EDT 2012

When you say remove TCL, there will still be a switch like USE_TCL , so
that someone who wants to include it in the project can still use it ?

Regards
Darshan

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com> wrote:

> +1 on seeking input.
>
> The danger of course, is that people who are merrily using tcl without
> problems may not be subscribed to the mailing lists and we may not find out
> until after we make the change and everything breaks.  Still I think that
> is the correct way to go and the best that we can do.
>
> - Wes
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Aashish Chaudhary <
> aashish.chaudhary at kitware.com> wrote:
>
>> In another email to Wes, I suggested the same. I have cc'd vtkuser's
>> mailing list as well ( to provide background on the topic, may be better to
>> start a new thread in the vtkusers mailing list).
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Bill Lorensen <bill.lorensen at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Will. We should ask the community about the impact of a
>>> VTK without tcl.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Will Schroeder
>>> <will.schroeder at kitware.com> wrote:
>>> > This may be a bigger issue than just the ARB, I'm wondering if we
>>> should ask
>>> > the question across the broader community, and/or create an explicit
>>> > transition plan.
>>> > W
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Changing a few interfaces is manageable.  Removing support for the
>>> entire
>>> >> GUI system is much more catastrophic.  If this were a democracy I
>>> would
>>> >> stage a filibuster and force a super-majority.  :-)
>>> >>
>>> >> As it is, I will happily abide by any decision by the ARB, but I
>>> strongly
>>> >> urge that they make an explicit decision and announce it, rather than
>>> just
>>> >> do it by default or allow support to erode away.
>>> >>
>>> >> - Wes
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:51 AM, David Cole <david.cole at kitware.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm not saying that applications like this shouldn't upgrade. On the
>>> >>> contrary, I think they should, and I think they should do it soon,
>>> and give
>>> >>> us feedback on the new layout of modular VTK, and on the rest of the
>>> changes
>>> >>> (legacy code removal), ... other changes?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I am saying we're making a bunch of changes anyhow, and applications
>>> are
>>> >>> going to have to make lots of changes to adapt to them anyhow... and
>>> because
>>> >>> of this, now is the perfect opportunity to make breaking changes, so
>>> that
>>> >>> apps that need to adapt only need to do it once, and then we
>>> position VTK
>>> >>> for better things in the future. (Specifically, a C++ namespace and
>>> >>> potential for more modern wrapped languages.)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tcl wrapping, even if removed from VTK itself, could be done in a
>>> >>> separate project, from the outside, after the fact. That's how
>>> ActiViz works
>>> >>> for C# wrapping: which is another thing that will have to adapt to
>>> this new
>>> >>> VTK if it wants to survive. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has
>>> spent
>>> >>> any effort making sure ActiViz is still going to work flawlessly
>>> with the
>>> >>> new VTK. That'll be something for somebody's to do list after the
>>> dust
>>> >>> settles here.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is the one chance we'll have in the next decade to break
>>> backwards
>>> >>> compatibility: we should take it while we have it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> David C.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Karthik Krishnan
>>> >>> <karthik.krishnan at kitware.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I agree with Wes. Again, not to be too vocal....
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't vote for  vtk3DWidget being renamed. Despite it being an old
>>> >>> generation widgets that we don't recommend folks derive from, but
>>> the fact
>>> >>> remains that there are a few widgets in VTK that derive from it.
>>> There are a
>>> >>> lot of widgets in Slicer (<20) and VolView (>10) that derive from
>>> it. These
>>> >>> are examples from just 2 applications.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't support Tcl wrapping being dropped. There are still a lot of
>>> apps
>>> >>> under active development out there relying on VTK being wrappable
>>> from Tcl
>>> >>> (BioImageSuite, VolView, SCIRun, MIPS to name a few). It hasn't been
>>> long
>>> >>> since Slicer made the switch either.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> These are all large applications, with a large user base and
>>> important
>>> >>> customers of VTK. Don't you think a stand that: "If these
>>> applications want
>>> >>> to continue using VTK, they shouldn't upgrade" is a bit harsh.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> thx
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> karthik
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:47 AM, David E DeMarle
>>> >>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> And I _will_ add text to the download page to make it clear what
>>> that
>>> >>>> binary is because you are entirely right that it shouldn't be the
>>> >>>> first thing newbies try.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> David E DeMarle
>>> >>>> Kitware, Inc.
>>> >>>> R&D Engineer
>>> >>>> 21 Corporate Drive
>>> >>>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>>> >>>> Phone: 518-881-4909
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, David E DeMarle
>>> >>>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>>> >>>> > That is an old school 32bit windows tcl interpreter with the tcl
>>> >>>> > wrapped vtk libs preloaded. Use it by typing in vtk tcl scripts
>>> there,
>>> >>>> > or just pass tcl scripts as filenames to that executable to run
>>> them
>>> >>>> > without the shell. (Back when I was a young lad, and when Will and
>>> >>>> > Bill were still old men, that was the _easy_ way to learn VTK. Ah
>>> >>>> > those were the days, even if we did have to walk five miles in the
>>> >>>> > snow to get to grad school.)
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > My plan for this release is to keep it the same as before. I hope
>>> to
>>> >>>> > find the time to make and post the vtkpython equivalent of that
>>> >>>> > executable for mac, linux and windows, but I am not going to hold
>>> up
>>> >>>> > the release release for them.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > For 6.0 we at least want the python exes, will probably drop the
>>> tcl
>>> >>>> > exe, and will try to make a proper SDK so that you don't need to
>>> >>>> > compile vtk to make c++ apps that use it.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > David E DeMarle
>>> >>>> > Kitware, Inc.
>>> >>>> > R&D Engineer
>>> >>>> > 21 Corporate Drive
>>> >>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>>> >>>> > Phone: 518-881-4909
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, David Doria <
>>> daviddoria at gmail.com>
>>> >>>> > wrote:
>>> >>>> >> On a related note, every Windows user I have suggested VTK to has
>>> >>>> >> gone
>>> >>>> >> to this page:
>>> >>>> >> http://vtk.org/VTK/resources/software.html#latest2
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> and been extremely confused about what they get with the "Windows
>>> >>>> >> (Installer) : vtk-5.8.0-win32-x86.exe". I just downloaded and
>>> >>>> >> installed it on a Windows machine, and when I run "VTK" from the
>>> >>>> >> start
>>> >>>> >> menu (the only thing that appears to be an option), I get a blank
>>> >>>> >> terminal window and a blank gray widget with no further
>>> >>>> >> instructions/explanation - indeed very confusing!
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> My understanding is that this is some sort of TCL-only binary
>>> >>>> >> package?
>>> >>>> >> My suggestion would be to remove this from the download page
>>> >>>> >> entirely,
>>> >>>> >> or at least bury it so it is not the first thing you see and so
>>> it
>>> >>>> >> doesn't look like what you should download as a new user. It
>>> should
>>> >>>> >> be
>>> >>>> >> immediately clear that VTK is intended to be used as a library,
>>> not a
>>> >>>> >> standalone application.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> David
>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>> >>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> >>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> karthik
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
>>> >> Kitware, Inc.
>>> >> Technical Leader
>>> >> 28 Corporate Drive
>>> >> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>>> >> Phone: 518-881-4920
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>> >>
>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>> >>
>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > William J. Schroeder, PhD
>>> > Kitware, Inc.
>>> > 28 Corporate Drive
>>> >
>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065
>>> > will.schroeder at kitware.com
>>> > http://www.kitware.com
>>> > (518) 881-4902
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
>>> >
>>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>> >
>>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Unpaid intern in BillsBasement at noware dot com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>
>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>
>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> | Aashish Chaudhary
>> | R&D Engineer
>> | Kitware Inc.
>> | www.kitware.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>
>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>
>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>>
>>
>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
> Kitware, Inc.
> Technical Leader
> 28 Corporate Drive
> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> Phone: 518-881-4920
>
> _______________________________________________
> Powered by www.kitware.com
>
> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>
> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>
> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.vtk.org/pipermail/vtkusers/attachments/20120328/6257e176/attachment.htm>