[vtkusers] [vtk-developers] Modularization, Context2D and Tcl

Wed Mar 28 18:08:42 EDT 2012

That is not my understanding.

- Wes

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Darshan Pai <darshanpai at gmail.com> wrote:

> When you say remove TCL, there will still be a switch like USE_TCL , so
> that someone who wants to include it in the project can still use it ?
>
> Regards
> Darshan
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>wrote:
>
>> +1 on seeking input.
>>
>> The danger of course, is that people who are merrily using tcl without
>> problems may not be subscribed to the mailing lists and we may not find out
>> until after we make the change and everything breaks.  Still I think that
>> is the correct way to go and the best that we can do.
>>
>> - Wes
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Aashish Chaudhary <
>> aashish.chaudhary at kitware.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In another email to Wes, I suggested the same. I have cc'd vtkuser's
>>> mailing list as well ( to provide background on the topic, may be better to
>>> start a new thread in the vtkusers mailing list).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Bill Lorensen <bill.lorensen at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with Will. We should ask the community about the impact of a
>>>> VTK without tcl.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Will Schroeder
>>>> <will.schroeder at kitware.com> wrote:
>>>> > This may be a bigger issue than just the ARB, I'm wondering if we
>>>> should ask
>>>> > the question across the broader community, and/or create an explicit
>>>> > transition plan.
>>>> > W
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Changing a few interfaces is manageable.  Removing support for the
>>>> entire
>>>> >> GUI system is much more catastrophic.  If this were a democracy I
>>>> would
>>>> >> stage a filibuster and force a super-majority.  :-)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> As it is, I will happily abide by any decision by the ARB, but I
>>>> strongly
>>>> >> urge that they make an explicit decision and announce it, rather
>>>> than just
>>>> >> do it by default or allow support to erode away.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> - Wes
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:51 AM, David Cole <david.cole at kitware.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I'm not saying that applications like this shouldn't upgrade. On the
>>>> >>> contrary, I think they should, and I think they should do it soon,
>>>> and give
>>>> >>> us feedback on the new layout of modular VTK, and on the rest of
>>>> the changes
>>>> >>> (legacy code removal), ... other changes?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I am saying we're making a bunch of changes anyhow, and
>>>> applications are
>>>> >>> going to have to make lots of changes to adapt to them anyhow...
>>>> and because
>>>> >>> of this, now is the perfect opportunity to make breaking changes,
>>>> so that
>>>> >>> apps that need to adapt only need to do it once, and then we
>>>> position VTK
>>>> >>> for better things in the future. (Specifically, a C++ namespace and
>>>> >>> potential for more modern wrapped languages.)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Tcl wrapping, even if removed from VTK itself, could be done in a
>>>> >>> separate project, from the outside, after the fact. That's how
>>>> ActiViz works
>>>> >>> for C# wrapping: which is another thing that will have to adapt to
>>>> this new
>>>> >>> VTK if it wants to survive. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has
>>>> spent
>>>> >>> any effort making sure ActiViz is still going to work flawlessly
>>>> with the
>>>> >>> new VTK. That'll be something for somebody's to do list after the
>>>> dust
>>>> >>> settles here.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> This is the one chance we'll have in the next decade to break
>>>> backwards
>>>> >>> compatibility: we should take it while we have it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> David C.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Karthik Krishnan
>>>> >>> <karthik.krishnan at kitware.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I agree with Wes. Again, not to be too vocal....
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I don't vote for  vtk3DWidget being renamed. Despite it being an old
>>>> >>> generation widgets that we don't recommend folks derive from, but
>>>> the fact
>>>> >>> remains that there are a few widgets in VTK that derive from it.
>>>> There are a
>>>> >>> lot of widgets in Slicer (<20) and VolView (>10) that derive from
>>>> it. These
>>>> >>> are examples from just 2 applications.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I don't support Tcl wrapping being dropped. There are still a lot
>>>> of apps
>>>> >>> under active development out there relying on VTK being wrappable
>>>> from Tcl
>>>> >>> (BioImageSuite, VolView, SCIRun, MIPS to name a few). It hasn't
>>>> been long
>>>> >>> since Slicer made the switch either.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> These are all large applications, with a large user base and
>>>> important
>>>> >>> customers of VTK. Don't you think a stand that: "If these
>>>> applications want
>>>> >>> to continue using VTK, they shouldn't upgrade" is a bit harsh.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> thx
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> karthik
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:47 AM, David E DeMarle
>>>> >>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And I _will_ add text to the download page to make it clear what
>>>> that
>>>> >>>> binary is because you are entirely right that it shouldn't be the
>>>> >>>> first thing newbies try.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> David E DeMarle
>>>> >>>> Kitware, Inc.
>>>> >>>> R&D Engineer
>>>> >>>> 21 Corporate Drive
>>>> >>>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>>>> >>>> Phone: 518-881-4909
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, David E DeMarle
>>>> >>>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> > That is an old school 32bit windows tcl interpreter with the tcl
>>>> >>>> > wrapped vtk libs preloaded. Use it by typing in vtk tcl scripts
>>>> there,
>>>> >>>> > or just pass tcl scripts as filenames to that executable to run
>>>> them
>>>> >>>> > without the shell. (Back when I was a young lad, and when Will
>>>> and
>>>> >>>> > Bill were still old men, that was the _easy_ way to learn VTK. Ah
>>>> >>>> > those were the days, even if we did have to walk five miles in
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> > snow to get to grad school.)
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > My plan for this release is to keep it the same as before. I
>>>> hope to
>>>> >>>> > find the time to make and post the vtkpython equivalent of that
>>>> >>>> > executable for mac, linux and windows, but I am not going to
>>>> hold up
>>>> >>>> > the release release for them.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > For 6.0 we at least want the python exes, will probably drop the
>>>> tcl
>>>> >>>> > exe, and will try to make a proper SDK so that you don't need to
>>>> >>>> > compile vtk to make c++ apps that use it.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > David E DeMarle
>>>> >>>> > Kitware, Inc.
>>>> >>>> > R&D Engineer
>>>> >>>> > 21 Corporate Drive
>>>> >>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>>>> >>>> > Phone: 518-881-4909
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, David Doria <
>>>> daviddoria at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>>> >> On a related note, every Windows user I have suggested VTK to
>>>> has
>>>> >>>> >> gone
>>>> >>>> >> to this page:
>>>> >>>> >> http://vtk.org/VTK/resources/software.html#latest2
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> and been extremely confused about what they get with the
>>>> "Windows
>>>> >>>> >> (Installer) : vtk-5.8.0-win32-x86.exe". I just downloaded and
>>>> >>>> >> installed it on a Windows machine, and when I run "VTK" from the
>>>> >>>> >> start
>>>> >>>> >> menu (the only thing that appears to be an option), I get a
>>>> blank
>>>> >>>> >> terminal window and a blank gray widget with no further
>>>> >>>> >> instructions/explanation - indeed very confusing!
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> My understanding is that this is some sort of TCL-only binary
>>>> >>>> >> package?
>>>> >>>> >> My suggestion would be to remove this from the download page
>>>> >>>> >> entirely,
>>>> >>>> >> or at least bury it so it is not the first thing you see and so
>>>> it
>>>> >>>> >> doesn't look like what you should download as a new user. It
>>>> should
>>>> >>>> >> be
>>>> >>>> >> immediately clear that VTK is intended to be used as a library,
>>>> not a
>>>> >>>> >> standalone application.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> David
>>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>>> >>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>>> >>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>>> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> karthik
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>>> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
>>>> >> Kitware, Inc.
>>>> >> Technical Leader
>>>> >> 28 Corporate Drive
>>>> >> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>>>> >> Phone: 518-881-4920
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > William J. Schroeder, PhD
>>>> > Kitware, Inc.
>>>> > 28 Corporate Drive
>>>> >
>>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065
>>>> > will.schroeder at kitware.com
>>>> > http://www.kitware.com
>>>> > (518) 881-4902
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>> >
>>>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>> >
>>>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>>> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Unpaid intern in BillsBasement at noware dot com
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>>
>>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>>
>>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> | Aashish Chaudhary
>>> | R&D Engineer
>>> | Kitware Inc.
>>> | www.kitware.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>>
>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>>
>>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
>>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>>>
>>>
>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
>> Kitware, Inc.
>> Technical Leader
>> 28 Corporate Drive
>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> Phone: 518-881-4920
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>
>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>
>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>>
>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>>
>>
>

-- 
Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
Kitware, Inc.
Technical Leader
28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
Phone: 518-881-4920
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