[vtkusers] [vtk-developers] Modularization, Context2D and Tcl

Wed Mar 28 17:59:25 EDT 2012

+1 on seeking input.

The danger of course, is that people who are merrily using tcl without
problems may not be subscribed to the mailing lists and we may not find out
until after we make the change and everything breaks.  Still I think that
is the correct way to go and the best that we can do.

- Wes

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Aashish Chaudhary <
aashish.chaudhary at kitware.com> wrote:

> In another email to Wes, I suggested the same. I have cc'd vtkuser's
> mailing list as well ( to provide background on the topic, may be better to
> start a new thread in the vtkusers mailing list).
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Bill Lorensen <bill.lorensen at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I agree with Will. We should ask the community about the impact of a
>> VTK without tcl.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Will Schroeder
>> <will.schroeder at kitware.com> wrote:
>> > This may be a bigger issue than just the ARB, I'm wondering if we
>> should ask
>> > the question across the broader community, and/or create an explicit
>> > transition plan.
>> > W
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Changing a few interfaces is manageable.  Removing support for the
>> entire
>> >> GUI system is much more catastrophic.  If this were a democracy I would
>> >> stage a filibuster and force a super-majority.  :-)
>> >>
>> >> As it is, I will happily abide by any decision by the ARB, but I
>> strongly
>> >> urge that they make an explicit decision and announce it, rather than
>> just
>> >> do it by default or allow support to erode away.
>> >>
>> >> - Wes
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:51 AM, David Cole <david.cole at kitware.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not saying that applications like this shouldn't upgrade. On the
>> >>> contrary, I think they should, and I think they should do it soon,
>> and give
>> >>> us feedback on the new layout of modular VTK, and on the rest of the
>> changes
>> >>> (legacy code removal), ... other changes?
>> >>>
>> >>> I am saying we're making a bunch of changes anyhow, and applications
>> are
>> >>> going to have to make lots of changes to adapt to them anyhow... and
>> because
>> >>> of this, now is the perfect opportunity to make breaking changes, so
>> that
>> >>> apps that need to adapt only need to do it once, and then we position
>> VTK
>> >>> for better things in the future. (Specifically, a C++ namespace and
>> >>> potential for more modern wrapped languages.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Tcl wrapping, even if removed from VTK itself, could be done in a
>> >>> separate project, from the outside, after the fact. That's how
>> ActiViz works
>> >>> for C# wrapping: which is another thing that will have to adapt to
>> this new
>> >>> VTK if it wants to survive. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has
>> spent
>> >>> any effort making sure ActiViz is still going to work flawlessly with
>> the
>> >>> new VTK. That'll be something for somebody's to do list after the dust
>> >>> settles here.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is the one chance we'll have in the next decade to break
>> backwards
>> >>> compatibility: we should take it while we have it.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> David C.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Karthik Krishnan
>> >>> <karthik.krishnan at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with Wes. Again, not to be too vocal....
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't vote for  vtk3DWidget being renamed. Despite it being an old
>> >>> generation widgets that we don't recommend folks derive from, but the
>> fact
>> >>> remains that there are a few widgets in VTK that derive from it.
>> There are a
>> >>> lot of widgets in Slicer (<20) and VolView (>10) that derive from it.
>> These
>> >>> are examples from just 2 applications.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't support Tcl wrapping being dropped. There are still a lot of
>> apps
>> >>> under active development out there relying on VTK being wrappable
>> from Tcl
>> >>> (BioImageSuite, VolView, SCIRun, MIPS to name a few). It hasn't been
>> long
>> >>> since Slicer made the switch either.
>> >>>
>> >>> These are all large applications, with a large user base and important
>> >>> customers of VTK. Don't you think a stand that: "If these
>> applications want
>> >>> to continue using VTK, they shouldn't upgrade" is a bit harsh.
>> >>>
>> >>> thx
>> >>> --
>> >>> karthik
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:47 AM, David E DeMarle
>> >>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And I _will_ add text to the download page to make it clear what that
>> >>>> binary is because you are entirely right that it shouldn't be the
>> >>>> first thing newbies try.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> David E DeMarle
>> >>>> Kitware, Inc.
>> >>>> R&D Engineer
>> >>>> 21 Corporate Drive
>> >>>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> >>>> Phone: 518-881-4909
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, David E DeMarle
>> >>>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>> > That is an old school 32bit windows tcl interpreter with the tcl
>> >>>> > wrapped vtk libs preloaded. Use it by typing in vtk tcl scripts
>> there,
>> >>>> > or just pass tcl scripts as filenames to that executable to run
>> them
>> >>>> > without the shell. (Back when I was a young lad, and when Will and
>> >>>> > Bill were still old men, that was the _easy_ way to learn VTK. Ah
>> >>>> > those were the days, even if we did have to walk five miles in the
>> >>>> > snow to get to grad school.)
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > My plan for this release is to keep it the same as before. I hope
>> to
>> >>>> > find the time to make and post the vtkpython equivalent of that
>> >>>> > executable for mac, linux and windows, but I am not going to hold
>> up
>> >>>> > the release release for them.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > For 6.0 we at least want the python exes, will probably drop the
>> tcl
>> >>>> > exe, and will try to make a proper SDK so that you don't need to
>> >>>> > compile vtk to make c++ apps that use it.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > David E DeMarle
>> >>>> > Kitware, Inc.
>> >>>> > R&D Engineer
>> >>>> > 21 Corporate Drive
>> >>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> >>>> > Phone: 518-881-4909
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, David Doria <daviddoria at gmail.com
>> >
>> >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>> >> On a related note, every Windows user I have suggested VTK to has
>> >>>> >> gone
>> >>>> >> to this page:
>> >>>> >> http://vtk.org/VTK/resources/software.html#latest2
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> and been extremely confused about what they get with the "Windows
>> >>>> >> (Installer) : vtk-5.8.0-win32-x86.exe". I just downloaded and
>> >>>> >> installed it on a Windows machine, and when I run "VTK" from the
>> >>>> >> start
>> >>>> >> menu (the only thing that appears to be an option), I get a blank
>> >>>> >> terminal window and a blank gray widget with no further
>> >>>> >> instructions/explanation - indeed very confusing!
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> My understanding is that this is some sort of TCL-only binary
>> >>>> >> package?
>> >>>> >> My suggestion would be to remove this from the download page
>> >>>> >> entirely,
>> >>>> >> or at least bury it so it is not the first thing you see and so it
>> >>>> >> doesn't look like what you should download as a new user. It
>> should
>> >>>> >> be
>> >>>> >> immediately clear that VTK is intended to be used as a library,
>> not a
>> >>>> >> standalone application.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> David
>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> --
>> >>> karthik
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>
>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
>> >> Kitware, Inc.
>> >> Technical Leader
>> >> 28 Corporate Drive
>> >> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> >> Phone: 518-881-4920
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>
>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>
>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > William J. Schroeder, PhD
>> > Kitware, Inc.
>> > 28 Corporate Drive
>> >
>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065
>> > will.schroeder at kitware.com
>> > http://www.kitware.com
>> > (518) 881-4902
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >
>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >
>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unpaid intern in BillsBasement at noware dot com
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> | Aashish Chaudhary
> | R&D Engineer
> | Kitware Inc.
> | www.kitware.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>

-- 
Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
Kitware, Inc.
Technical Leader
28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
Phone: 518-881-4920
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