[vtkusers] [vtk-developers] Modularization, Context2D and Tcl
Aashish Chaudhary
aashish.chaudhary at kitware.com
Thu Mar 29 08:51:36 EDT 2012
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 7:33 AM, Berk Geveci <berk.geveci at kitware.com>wrote:
> I fully agree with Marcus.
>
> Given that supporting Tcl going forward is not going to be a big burden, I
> see no reason to drop it. In my opinion, it is unfair to drop functionality
> because it requires some minimal effort to carry forward if it is still
> being used by a part of the community, however small it may be.
>
*
> *
> However, we should transition core documentation (such as the books) as
> well as tests to use C++ and Python over time. This should be enough to
> encourage new folks to use Python instead of Tcl.
>
Sounds like a good middle - ground to me. I am willing to help ( and seems
like others too ).
>
> -berk
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Marcus D. Hanwell <
> marcus.hanwell at kitware.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I didn't intend to start a thread debating the removal of Tcl. My take
>> on the situation is that there is a fair bit of legacy code out there
>> using it, including the VTK books and several projects (primarily in
>> the medical field). In the modularized VTK tree I have the Tcl
>> wrapping working (mostly at least - more tests need to be brought in),
>> and wrapping large parts of the API correctly that had thus far not
>> been brought in properly.
>>
>> I think we should mark the Tcl wrapped code as deprecated, 'heirloom'
>> or whatever the right term is to indicate to our users that we do not
>> have plans to significantly extend them. At this stage, with the work
>> already present to support automatically wrapping and the few
>> problematic modules mapped to similar names, I think we should keep
>> them available for compilation even if they are superseded by Python
>> as the default wrapped language.
>>
>> I think we should update the next editions of the books to focus
>> primarily on the C++ API, and Python as the preferred wrapped
>> language. Having Tcl and Java examples in there would still be
>> appropriate in my opinion. I don't have any time to do this, but it
>> seems like there are some people with time and motivation to help with
>> that. It would be great to hear what the community at large thinks.
>> Code will probably need to be updated with the correct module names,
>> we may be able to do a little work there to import the correct new
>> modules for the old (and this would also likely help in porting Python
>> code which would have the exact same issue).
>>
>> My $0.10 on the issue. I will continue watching the mailing lists with
>> interest, and of course welcome further input.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
>> wrote:
>> > That is not my understanding.
>> >
>> > - Wes
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Darshan Pai <darshanpai at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> When you say remove TCL, there will still be a switch like USE_TCL , so
>> >> that someone who wants to include it in the project can still use it ?
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Darshan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> +1 on seeking input.
>> >>>
>> >>> The danger of course, is that people who are merrily using tcl without
>> >>> problems may not be subscribed to the mailing lists and we may not
>> find out
>> >>> until after we make the change and everything breaks. Still I think
>> that is
>> >>> the correct way to go and the best that we can do.
>> >>>
>> >>> - Wes
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Aashish Chaudhary
>> >>> <aashish.chaudhary at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In another email to Wes, I suggested the same. I have cc'd vtkuser's
>> >>>> mailing list as well ( to provide background on the topic, may be
>> better to
>> >>>> start a new thread in the vtkusers mailing list).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Bill Lorensen
>> >>>> <bill.lorensen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I agree with Will. We should ask the community about the impact of a
>> >>>>> VTK without tcl.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Will Schroeder
>> >>>>> <will.schroeder at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> > This may be a bigger issue than just the ARB, I'm wondering if we
>> >>>>> > should ask
>> >>>>> > the question across the broader community, and/or create an
>> explicit
>> >>>>> > transition plan.
>> >>>>> > W
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Wes Turner <
>> wes.turner at kitware.com>
>> >>>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Changing a few interfaces is manageable. Removing support for
>> the
>> >>>>> >> entire
>> >>>>> >> GUI system is much more catastrophic. If this were a democracy I
>> >>>>> >> would
>> >>>>> >> stage a filibuster and force a super-majority. :-)
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> As it is, I will happily abide by any decision by the ARB, but I
>> >>>>> >> strongly
>> >>>>> >> urge that they make an explicit decision and announce it, rather
>> >>>>> >> than just
>> >>>>> >> do it by default or allow support to erode away.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> - Wes
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:51 AM, David Cole <
>> david.cole at kitware.com>
>> >>>>> >> wrote:
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> I'm not saying that applications like this shouldn't upgrade. On
>> >>>>> >>> the
>> >>>>> >>> contrary, I think they should, and I think they should do it
>> soon,
>> >>>>> >>> and give
>> >>>>> >>> us feedback on the new layout of modular VTK, and on the rest of
>> >>>>> >>> the changes
>> >>>>> >>> (legacy code removal), ... other changes?
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> I am saying we're making a bunch of changes anyhow, and
>> >>>>> >>> applications are
>> >>>>> >>> going to have to make lots of changes to adapt to them anyhow...
>> >>>>> >>> and because
>> >>>>> >>> of this, now is the perfect opportunity to make breaking
>> changes,
>> >>>>> >>> so that
>> >>>>> >>> apps that need to adapt only need to do it once, and then we
>> >>>>> >>> position VTK
>> >>>>> >>> for better things in the future. (Specifically, a C++ namespace
>> and
>> >>>>> >>> potential for more modern wrapped languages.)
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Tcl wrapping, even if removed from VTK itself, could be done in
>> a
>> >>>>> >>> separate project, from the outside, after the fact. That's how
>> >>>>> >>> ActiViz works
>> >>>>> >>> for C# wrapping: which is another thing that will have to adapt
>> to
>> >>>>> >>> this new
>> >>>>> >>> VTK if it wants to survive. To the best of my knowledge, nobody
>> has
>> >>>>> >>> spent
>> >>>>> >>> any effort making sure ActiViz is still going to work flawlessly
>> >>>>> >>> with the
>> >>>>> >>> new VTK. That'll be something for somebody's to do list after
>> the
>> >>>>> >>> dust
>> >>>>> >>> settles here.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> This is the one chance we'll have in the next decade to break
>> >>>>> >>> backwards
>> >>>>> >>> compatibility: we should take it while we have it.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> David C.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Karthik Krishnan
>> >>>>> >>> <karthik.krishnan at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> I agree with Wes. Again, not to be too vocal....
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> I don't vote for vtk3DWidget being renamed. Despite it being an
>> >>>>> >>> old
>> >>>>> >>> generation widgets that we don't recommend folks derive from,
>> but
>> >>>>> >>> the fact
>> >>>>> >>> remains that there are a few widgets in VTK that derive from it.
>> >>>>> >>> There are a
>> >>>>> >>> lot of widgets in Slicer (<20) and VolView (>10) that derive
>> from
>> >>>>> >>> it. These
>> >>>>> >>> are examples from just 2 applications.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> I don't support Tcl wrapping being dropped. There are still a
>> lot
>> >>>>> >>> of apps
>> >>>>> >>> under active development out there relying on VTK being
>> wrappable
>> >>>>> >>> from Tcl
>> >>>>> >>> (BioImageSuite, VolView, SCIRun, MIPS to name a few). It hasn't
>> >>>>> >>> been long
>> >>>>> >>> since Slicer made the switch either.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> These are all large applications, with a large user base and
>> >>>>> >>> important
>> >>>>> >>> customers of VTK. Don't you think a stand that: "If these
>> >>>>> >>> applications want
>> >>>>> >>> to continue using VTK, they shouldn't upgrade" is a bit harsh.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> thx
>> >>>>> >>> --
>> >>>>> >>> karthik
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:47 AM, David E DeMarle
>> >>>>> >>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> And I _will_ add text to the download page to make it clear
>> what
>> >>>>> >>>> that
>> >>>>> >>>> binary is because you are entirely right that it shouldn't be
>> the
>> >>>>> >>>> first thing newbies try.
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> David E DeMarle
>> >>>>> >>>> Kitware, Inc.
>> >>>>> >>>> R&D Engineer
>> >>>>> >>>> 21 Corporate Drive
>> >>>>> >>>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> >>>>> >>>> Phone: 518-881-4909
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, David E DeMarle
>> >>>>> >>>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> >>>> > That is an old school 32bit windows tcl interpreter with the
>> tcl
>> >>>>> >>>> > wrapped vtk libs preloaded. Use it by typing in vtk tcl
>> scripts
>> >>>>> >>>> > there,
>> >>>>> >>>> > or just pass tcl scripts as filenames to that executable to
>> run
>> >>>>> >>>> > them
>> >>>>> >>>> > without the shell. (Back when I was a young lad, and when
>> Will
>> >>>>> >>>> > and
>> >>>>> >>>> > Bill were still old men, that was the _easy_ way to learn
>> VTK.
>> >>>>> >>>> > Ah
>> >>>>> >>>> > those were the days, even if we did have to walk five miles
>> in
>> >>>>> >>>> > the
>> >>>>> >>>> > snow to get to grad school.)
>> >>>>> >>>> >
>> >>>>> >>>> > My plan for this release is to keep it the same as before. I
>> >>>>> >>>> > hope to
>> >>>>> >>>> > find the time to make and post the vtkpython equivalent of
>> that
>> >>>>> >>>> > executable for mac, linux and windows, but I am not going to
>> >>>>> >>>> > hold up
>> >>>>> >>>> > the release release for them.
>> >>>>> >>>> >
>> >>>>> >>>> > For 6.0 we at least want the python exes, will probably drop
>> the
>> >>>>> >>>> > tcl
>> >>>>> >>>> > exe, and will try to make a proper SDK so that you don't
>> need to
>> >>>>> >>>> > compile vtk to make c++ apps that use it.
>> >>>>> >>>> >
>> >>>>> >>>> > David E DeMarle
>> >>>>> >>>> > Kitware, Inc.
>> >>>>> >>>> > R&D Engineer
>> >>>>> >>>> > 21 Corporate Drive
>> >>>>> >>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> >>>>> >>>> > Phone: 518-881-4909
>> >>>>> >>>> >
>> >>>>> >>>> >
>> >>>>> >>>> >
>> >>>>> >>>> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, David Doria
>> >>>>> >>>> > <daviddoria at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>> >>>> >> On a related note, every Windows user I have suggested VTK
>> to
>> >>>>> >>>> >> has
>> >>>>> >>>> >> gone
>> >>>>> >>>> >> to this page:
>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://vtk.org/VTK/resources/software.html#latest2
>> >>>>> >>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>> >> and been extremely confused about what they get with the
>> >>>>> >>>> >> "Windows
>> >>>>> >>>> >> (Installer) : vtk-5.8.0-win32-x86.exe". I just downloaded
>> and
>> >>>>> >>>> >> installed it on a Windows machine, and when I run "VTK" from
>> >>>>> >>>> >> the
>> >>>>> >>>> >> start
>> >>>>> >>>> >> menu (the only thing that appears to be an option), I get a
>> >>>>> >>>> >> blank
>> >>>>> >>>> >> terminal window and a blank gray widget with no further
>> >>>>> >>>> >> instructions/explanation - indeed very confusing!
>> >>>>> >>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>> >> My understanding is that this is some sort of TCL-only
>> binary
>> >>>>> >>>> >> package?
>> >>>>> >>>> >> My suggestion would be to remove this from the download page
>> >>>>> >>>> >> entirely,
>> >>>>> >>>> >> or at least bury it so it is not the first thing you see
>> and so
>> >>>>> >>>> >> it
>> >>>>> >>>> >> doesn't look like what you should download as a new user. It
>> >>>>> >>>> >> should
>> >>>>> >>>> >> be
>> >>>>> >>>> >> immediately clear that VTK is intended to be used as a
>> library,
>> >>>>> >>>> >> not a
>> >>>>> >>>> >> standalone application.
>> >>>>> >>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>> >> David
>> >>>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> >>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>> >>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>> >>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>>> >>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> --
>> >>>>> >>> --
>> >>>>> >>> karthik
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>>> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> --
>> >>>>> >> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
>> >>>>> >> Kitware, Inc.
>> >>>>> >> Technical Leader
>> >>>>> >> 28 Corporate Drive
>> >>>>> >> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> >>>>> >> Phone: 518-881-4920
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > --
>> >>>>> > William J. Schroeder, PhD
>> >>>>> > Kitware, Inc.
>> >>>>> > 28 Corporate Drive
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065
>> >>>>> > will.schroeder at kitware.com
>> >>>>> > http://www.kitware.com
>> >>>>> > (518) 881-4902
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>>> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Unpaid intern in BillsBasement at noware dot com
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> | Aashish Chaudhary
>> >>>> | R&D Engineer
>> >>>> | Kitware Inc.
>> >>>> | www.kitware.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
>> >>> Kitware, Inc.
>> >>> Technical Leader
>> >>> 28 Corporate Drive
>> >>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> >>> Phone: 518-881-4920
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >>>
>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>> >>>
>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
>> > Kitware, Inc.
>> > Technical Leader
>> > 28 Corporate Drive
>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
>> > Phone: 518-881-4920
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
>> >
>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>> >
>> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
>> > http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>> >
>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Powered by www.kitware.com
>>
>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>>
>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Powered by www.kitware.com
>
> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>
> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>
> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>
>
--
| Aashish Chaudhary
| R&D Engineer
| Kitware Inc.
| www.kitware.com
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