[vtkusers] [vtk-developers] Modularization, Context2D and Tcl

Thu Mar 29 07:33:52 EDT 2012

I fully agree with Marcus.

Given that supporting Tcl going forward is not going to be a big burden, I
see no reason to drop it. In my opinion, it is unfair to drop functionality
because it requires some minimal effort to carry forward if it is still
being used by a part of the community, however small it may be.

However, we should transition core documentation (such as the books) as
well as tests to use C++ and Python over time. This should be enough to
encourage new folks to use Python instead of Tcl.

-berk

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Marcus D. Hanwell <
marcus.hanwell at kitware.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I didn't intend to start a thread debating the removal of Tcl. My take
> on the situation is that there is a fair bit of legacy code out there
> using it, including the VTK books and several projects (primarily in
> the medical field). In the modularized VTK tree I have the Tcl
> wrapping working (mostly at least - more tests need to be brought in),
> and wrapping large parts of the API correctly that had thus far not
> been brought in properly.
>
> I think we should mark the Tcl wrapped code as deprecated, 'heirloom'
> or whatever the right term is to indicate to our users that we do not
> have plans to significantly extend them. At this stage, with the work
> already present to support automatically wrapping and the few
> problematic modules mapped to similar names, I think we should keep
> them available for compilation even if they are superseded by Python
> as the default wrapped language.
>
> I think we should update the next editions of the books to focus
> primarily on the C++ API, and Python as the preferred wrapped
> language. Having Tcl and Java examples in there would still be
> appropriate in my opinion. I don't have any time to do this, but it
> seems like there are some people with time and motivation to help with
> that. It would be great to hear what the community at large thinks.
> Code will probably need to be updated with the correct module names,
> we may be able to do a little work there to import the correct new
> modules for the old (and this would also likely help in porting Python
> code which would have the exact same issue).
>
> My $0.10 on the issue. I will continue watching the mailing lists with
> interest, and of course welcome further input.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marcus
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
> wrote:
> > That is not my understanding.
> >
> > - Wes
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Darshan Pai <darshanpai at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> When you say remove TCL, there will still be a switch like USE_TCL , so
> >> that someone who wants to include it in the project can still use it ?
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Darshan
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> +1 on seeking input.
> >>>
> >>> The danger of course, is that people who are merrily using tcl without
> >>> problems may not be subscribed to the mailing lists and we may not
> find out
> >>> until after we make the change and everything breaks.  Still I think
> that is
> >>> the correct way to go and the best that we can do.
> >>>
> >>> - Wes
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Aashish Chaudhary
> >>> <aashish.chaudhary at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> In another email to Wes, I suggested the same. I have cc'd vtkuser's
> >>>> mailing list as well ( to provide background on the topic, may be
> better to
> >>>> start a new thread in the vtkusers mailing list).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Bill Lorensen
> >>>> <bill.lorensen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree with Will. We should ask the community about the impact of a
> >>>>> VTK without tcl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Will Schroeder
> >>>>> <will.schroeder at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > This may be a bigger issue than just the ARB, I'm wondering if we
> >>>>> > should ask
> >>>>> > the question across the broader community, and/or create an
> explicit
> >>>>> > transition plan.
> >>>>> > W
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Wes Turner <
> wes.turner at kitware.com>
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Changing a few interfaces is manageable.  Removing support for the
> >>>>> >> entire
> >>>>> >> GUI system is much more catastrophic.  If this were a democracy I
> >>>>> >> would
> >>>>> >> stage a filibuster and force a super-majority.  :-)
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> As it is, I will happily abide by any decision by the ARB, but I
> >>>>> >> strongly
> >>>>> >> urge that they make an explicit decision and announce it, rather
> >>>>> >> than just
> >>>>> >> do it by default or allow support to erode away.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> - Wes
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:51 AM, David Cole <
> david.cole at kitware.com>
> >>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I'm not saying that applications like this shouldn't upgrade. On
> >>>>> >>> the
> >>>>> >>> contrary, I think they should, and I think they should do it
> soon,
> >>>>> >>> and give
> >>>>> >>> us feedback on the new layout of modular VTK, and on the rest of
> >>>>> >>> the changes
> >>>>> >>> (legacy code removal), ... other changes?
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I am saying we're making a bunch of changes anyhow, and
> >>>>> >>> applications are
> >>>>> >>> going to have to make lots of changes to adapt to them anyhow...
> >>>>> >>> and because
> >>>>> >>> of this, now is the perfect opportunity to make breaking changes,
> >>>>> >>> so that
> >>>>> >>> apps that need to adapt only need to do it once, and then we
> >>>>> >>> position VTK
> >>>>> >>> for better things in the future. (Specifically, a C++ namespace
> and
> >>>>> >>> potential for more modern wrapped languages.)
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Tcl wrapping, even if removed from VTK itself, could be done in a
> >>>>> >>> separate project, from the outside, after the fact. That's how
> >>>>> >>> ActiViz works
> >>>>> >>> for C# wrapping: which is another thing that will have to adapt
> to
> >>>>> >>> this new
> >>>>> >>> VTK if it wants to survive. To the best of my knowledge, nobody
> has
> >>>>> >>> spent
> >>>>> >>> any effort making sure ActiViz is still going to work flawlessly
> >>>>> >>> with the
> >>>>> >>> new VTK. That'll be something for somebody's to do list after the
> >>>>> >>> dust
> >>>>> >>> settles here.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> This is the one chance we'll have in the next decade to break
> >>>>> >>> backwards
> >>>>> >>> compatibility: we should take it while we have it.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> David C.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Karthik Krishnan
> >>>>> >>> <karthik.krishnan at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I agree with Wes. Again, not to be too vocal....
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I don't vote for  vtk3DWidget being renamed. Despite it being an
> >>>>> >>> old
> >>>>> >>> generation widgets that we don't recommend folks derive from, but
> >>>>> >>> the fact
> >>>>> >>> remains that there are a few widgets in VTK that derive from it.
> >>>>> >>> There are a
> >>>>> >>> lot of widgets in Slicer (<20) and VolView (>10) that derive from
> >>>>> >>> it. These
> >>>>> >>> are examples from just 2 applications.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I don't support Tcl wrapping being dropped. There are still a lot
> >>>>> >>> of apps
> >>>>> >>> under active development out there relying on VTK being wrappable
> >>>>> >>> from Tcl
> >>>>> >>> (BioImageSuite, VolView, SCIRun, MIPS to name a few). It hasn't
> >>>>> >>> been long
> >>>>> >>> since Slicer made the switch either.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> These are all large applications, with a large user base and
> >>>>> >>> important
> >>>>> >>> customers of VTK. Don't you think a stand that: "If these
> >>>>> >>> applications want
> >>>>> >>> to continue using VTK, they shouldn't upgrade" is a bit harsh.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> thx
> >>>>> >>> --
> >>>>> >>> karthik
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:47 AM, David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> And I _will_ add text to the download page to make it clear what
> >>>>> >>>> that
> >>>>> >>>> binary is because you are entirely right that it shouldn't be
> the
> >>>>> >>>> first thing newbies try.
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>>> Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> >>>> R&D Engineer
> >>>>> >>>> 21 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >>>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>>>> >>>> Phone: 518-881-4909
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>> > That is an old school 32bit windows tcl interpreter with the
> tcl
> >>>>> >>>> > wrapped vtk libs preloaded. Use it by typing in vtk tcl
> scripts
> >>>>> >>>> > there,
> >>>>> >>>> > or just pass tcl scripts as filenames to that executable to
> run
> >>>>> >>>> > them
> >>>>> >>>> > without the shell. (Back when I was a young lad, and when Will
> >>>>> >>>> > and
> >>>>> >>>> > Bill were still old men, that was the _easy_ way to learn VTK.
> >>>>> >>>> > Ah
> >>>>> >>>> > those were the days, even if we did have to walk five miles in
> >>>>> >>>> > the
> >>>>> >>>> > snow to get to grad school.)
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > My plan for this release is to keep it the same as before. I
> >>>>> >>>> > hope to
> >>>>> >>>> > find the time to make and post the vtkpython equivalent of
> that
> >>>>> >>>> > executable for mac, linux and windows, but I am not going to
> >>>>> >>>> > hold up
> >>>>> >>>> > the release release for them.
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > For 6.0 we at least want the python exes, will probably drop
> the
> >>>>> >>>> > tcl
> >>>>> >>>> > exe, and will try to make a proper SDK so that you don't need
> to
> >>>>> >>>> > compile vtk to make c++ apps that use it.
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>>> > Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> >>>> > R&D Engineer
> >>>>> >>>> > 21 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>>>> >>>> > Phone: 518-881-4909
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, David Doria
> >>>>> >>>> > <daviddoria at gmail.com>
> >>>>> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>>> >> On a related note, every Windows user I have suggested VTK to
> >>>>> >>>> >> has
> >>>>> >>>> >> gone
> >>>>> >>>> >> to this page:
> >>>>> >>>> >> http://vtk.org/VTK/resources/software.html#latest2
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> and been extremely confused about what they get with the
> >>>>> >>>> >> "Windows
> >>>>> >>>> >> (Installer) : vtk-5.8.0-win32-x86.exe". I just downloaded and
> >>>>> >>>> >> installed it on a Windows machine, and when I run "VTK" from
> >>>>> >>>> >> the
> >>>>> >>>> >> start
> >>>>> >>>> >> menu (the only thing that appears to be an option), I get a
> >>>>> >>>> >> blank
> >>>>> >>>> >> terminal window and a blank gray widget with no further
> >>>>> >>>> >> instructions/explanation - indeed very confusing!
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> My understanding is that this is some sort of TCL-only binary
> >>>>> >>>> >> package?
> >>>>> >>>> >> My suggestion would be to remove this from the download page
> >>>>> >>>> >> entirely,
> >>>>> >>>> >> or at least bury it so it is not the first thing you see and
> so
> >>>>> >>>> >> it
> >>>>> >>>> >> doesn't look like what you should download as a new user. It
> >>>>> >>>> >> should
> >>>>> >>>> >> be
> >>>>> >>>> >> immediately clear that VTK is intended to be used as a
> library,
> >>>>> >>>> >> not a
> >>>>> >>>> >> standalone application.
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> David
> >>>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> --
> >>>>> >>> --
> >>>>> >>> karthik
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> --
> >>>>> >> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
> >>>>> >> Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> >> Technical Leader
> >>>>> >> 28 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>>>> >> Phone: 518-881-4920
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > --
> >>>>> > William J. Schroeder, PhD
> >>>>> > Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> > 28 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065
> >>>>> > will.schroeder at kitware.com
> >>>>> > http://www.kitware.com
> >>>>> > (518) 881-4902
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Unpaid intern in BillsBasement at noware dot com
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> | Aashish Chaudhary
> >>>> | R&D Engineer
> >>>> | Kitware Inc.
> >>>> | www.kitware.com
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
> >>> Kitware, Inc.
> >>> Technical Leader
> >>> 28 Corporate Drive
> >>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>> Phone: 518-881-4920
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>
> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>
> >>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> >>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >>>
> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
> > Kitware, Inc.
> > Technical Leader
> > 28 Corporate Drive
> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> > Phone: 518-881-4920
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >
> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >
> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> > http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >
> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Powered by www.kitware.com
>
> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>
> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
>
>
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