[Ctk-developers] Scenes

Fri Sep 18 19:01:14 EDT 2009

Hi,

Gianluca and Ivo bring up a good point..."what is a scene?".   The
wiki begins with that discussion and a list of requirements, and it
seems as though we might need to hash it out a bit more.

To being, perhaps we need to distinguish computer graphics scene
graphs ("CGScenes") from image processing scene graphs ("IPScenes").
The two serve different purposes.

CGScenes are used in two of the largest, community imaging
environments: XIP (OpenInventor) and Slicer (MRML).   CGScenes use
traversal-based semantics to define the context at a node, this is
motivated by openGL's use of contexts during rendering.   CGScenes are
highly developed and have wonderful utility in computer graphics, and
clearly they are a solid basis for imaging applications.

IPScenes have also been developed independently by several groups
(MITK, IGSTK, itkSpatialObjects, and OpenMAF).  An IPScene is a tree
of transforms, where the transform at a node only influences its
children.  That is, you don't traverse the scene graph to understand
the context of the image stored at a node.   IGScenes have
demonstrated themselves to be useful for representing the relative
location of patients and instruments for surgical guidance systems,
the interactions of physiological systems for gate/motion analysis and
prosthesis design, the multiscale representation of biological
processes for multi-system disease modeling, and numerous other
application areas.   Sorry if my bias is showing here.

As Gianluca mentioned, we need to save the state of an application as
it processes its data.   CGScenes make this easy.  The centralization
of GUI and model information simplifies saving state and simplifies
the implementation of undo/redo capabilities.   However, it could be
argued that such mingling does confound the exchange of data across
different applications and does create massive scenes that mix
physical and GUI constructs.  Defining a common API for such disparate
types of data does perhaps necessitate the over simplification of the
API.   For example, the scene requirements listed on our wiki suggest
that we need to be able to ask for the physical location of an
object...how can you ask a GUI button for its physical location?   How
can you apply a 3D transform to a slider?   The notion of saving the
state of an application is critical, but perhaps it is better suited
for a data structure other than the scene graph; one that has its own,
specific API.

So, we need both: a scene of objects and a record of the GUI state.
On some implementations, it may be useful to combine them as
facilitated by CGScenes.   However, we should also allow other
implementations to keep them separate.

In particular, perhaps the XIP can be used as a reference
implementation demonstrating their combined storage.    Additionally,
it would be interesting to see if MITK, IGSTK, or others can be
adopted as a companion implementation that demonstrates the utility of
keeping GUI and physical objects in separate data structures.

Let's begin the talk on Friday with "What is a scene"   - I fear we
won't get beyond this question unless we have already had a few beers,
and it will be a bit early in the day.   So perhaps we should try to
limit the time for each topic so that we can hit some potentially
fertile topics for discussion as well as the more cantankerous topics.

Thanks,
Stephen

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Paladini, Gianluca (SCR US)
<gianluca.paladini at siemens.com> wrote:
> The advantage of a scene graph comes primarily from those nodes which
> define attributes rather than drawn objects, because those attributes
> can be inherited in lower branches of the scene and represent the state
> of the system at any point during scene graph traversal - that is a key
> feature, especially when it comes to transform matrices. "Separator"
> objects prevent those state changes from propagating, while "Group"
> objects don't. It is this mechanism that makes scene graphs ideal for
> setting up coordinate systems and controlling parts that move with
> respect to each other.
> Without that it's not a scene graph, it's a pipeline. Pipelines are
> supported in Open Inventor too, but via objects called engines rather
> than nodes.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ctk-developers-bounces at commontk.org
> [mailto:ctk-developers-bounces at commontk.org] On Behalf Of Wolf Ivo
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 5:02 PM
> To: Stephen Aylward; ctk-developers at commontk.org
> Subject: Re: [Ctk-developers] Scenes
>
> Hi Stephen,
> As for the MITK team, we traditionally like the type of definition of a
> scene that you gave and the mode-view-controller pattern. Both is pretty
> close to what is used within MITK (except for some extensions, which
> would be great to have) and therefore could nicely be integrated from
> CTK. Nevertheless, my feeling is that starting with a scene
> implementation is not the easiest way to go.
>
> And caution (correct me, if I am wrong): The Open Inventor definition of
> a scene is different from yours (and ours)! Nodes in an Open Inventor
> scene graph are not necessarily 'objects' (called shape nodes there),
> but can also be lights, materials (e.g. color), transforms (matrices),
> switches etc. Thus, the definition "a scene is composed of objects that
> fill a portion of space and time" is not compatible with Open Inventor
> (a material node does not fill a portion of space). Maybe it is possible
> (and desirable) to combine both ideas of defining a scene graph: the
> more data-centered approach defined above and the visualization-centered
> approach of Open Inventor. But we should be careful that we are talking
> about the same things (a topic for the list of questions).
>
> Regarding a brief presentation, we recently added some semantic
> information to our scene description, which might be useful for ctk,
> too.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ivo
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Von: ctk-developers-bounces at commontk.org im Auftrag von Stephen Aylward
> Gesendet: Do 17.09.2009 02:18
> An: ctk-developers at commontk.org
> Betreff: [Ctk-developers] Scenes
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> ctkScene:  Love it?  Hate it?  Know you can make it better?
>
> Regardless of your current attitude, please send me your ideas and
> presentations!!!
>
> I'd like to help organize the discussion on ctkScene that is scheduled
> for next Friday.
>
> 1) If you are interested in making a brief presentation (less than 10
> minutes), then please send me an email with the title.   I will add it
> into our agenda.
>
> 2) If you have revisions to the Wiki page on ctkScene - please make
> those revisions by 5pm EST (22:00 GMT) on Friday.   I am going to
> summarize those wiki pages as a set of slides at the start of the
> meeting.
>      http://my-trac.assembla.com/protoctk/wiki/ctkScene
>
> 3) If you have questions, concerns, needs, wants, or rants regarding the
> ctkScene, please send them to me and I will create a set of slides
> that list "open-issues" to help focus our discussions.   We only have
> one-hour, so I'd like to focus on high-level issues that remain, prior
> to getting into implementation details.   For example, should a
> ctkScene be only a file format or should it also be implemented as a
> set of C++ classes?   Should a ctkScene be specific to or independent
> of the visualization library?   Should a ctkScene be our primary data
> structure, or should our primary data structure simply be an image?
> ...please add to this list of questions...
>
> Thanks!
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen R. Aylward, Ph.D.
> Director of Medical Imaging
> Kitware, Inc. - North Carolina Office
> http://www.kitware.com <http://www.kitware.com/> stephen.aylward (Skype)
> (919) 969-6990 x300
> _______________________________________________
> Ctk-developers mailing list
> Ctk-developers at commontk.org
> http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ctk-developers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ctk-developers mailing list
> Ctk-developers at commontk.org
> http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ctk-developers
>

-- 
Stephen R. Aylward, Ph.D.
Director of Medical Imaging
Kitware, Inc. - North Carolina Office
http://www.kitware.com
stephen.aylward (Skype)
(919) 969-6990 x300