[vtkusers] vtk-developers Digest, Vol 95, Issue 58

Wed Mar 28 20:34:48 EDT 2012

Marcus,
   This is a good way forward.

With respect to updating the books, I agree with you in that we
should update the next editions of the books to focus primarily on the C++
API, and Python as the preferred wrapped language.
I am happy to help converting the C++ examples in the book to the newer
version of VTK. I have had a quick look and the conversion is pretty
straightforward and I have already completed Cone and Cone2. I will
probably finish the rest in a few hours.
   I will be also  glad to help with the conversion of TCL to Python.

If you guys (Kitware) set up a repository with the original code and
datasets then I can start putting them up. At least then we will have a
good working base.

Regards
   Andrew

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Marcus D. Hanwell" <marcus.hanwell at kitware.com>
> To: Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
> Cc: VTK Developers <vtk-developers at vtk.org>, vtkusers <vtkusers at vtk.org>,
> Will Schroeder <will.schroeder at kitware.com>, Darshan Pai <
> darshanpai at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:00:33 -0400
> Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Modularization, Context2D and Tcl
> Hi,
>
> I didn't intend to start a thread debating the removal of Tcl. My take
> on the situation is that there is a fair bit of legacy code out there
> using it, including the VTK books and several projects (primarily in
> the medical field). In the modularized VTK tree I have the Tcl
> wrapping working (mostly at least - more tests need to be brought in),
> and wrapping large parts of the API correctly that had thus far not
> been brought in properly.
>
> I think we should mark the Tcl wrapped code as deprecated, 'heirloom'
> or whatever the right term is to indicate to our users that we do not
> have plans to significantly extend them. At this stage, with the work
> already present to support automatically wrapping and the few
> problematic modules mapped to similar names, I think we should keep
> them available for compilation even if they are superseded by Python
> as the default wrapped language.
>
> I think we should update the next editions of the books to focus
> primarily on the C++ API, and Python as the preferred wrapped
> language. Having Tcl and Java examples in there would still be
> appropriate in my opinion. I don't have any time to do this, but it
> seems like there are some people with time and motivation to help with
> that. It would be great to hear what the community at large thinks.
> Code will probably need to be updated with the correct module names,
> we may be able to do a little work there to import the correct new
> modules for the old (and this would also likely help in porting Python
> code which would have the exact same issue).
>
> My $0.10 on the issue. I will continue watching the mailing lists with
> interest, and of course welcome further input.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marcus
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
> wrote:
> > That is not my understanding.
> >
> > - Wes
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Darshan Pai <darshanpai at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> When you say remove TCL, there will still be a switch like USE_TCL , so
> >> that someone who wants to include it in the project can still use it ?
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Darshan
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Wes Turner <wes.turner at kitware.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> +1 on seeking input.
> >>>
> >>> The danger of course, is that people who are merrily using tcl without
> >>> problems may not be subscribed to the mailing lists and we may not
> find out
> >>> until after we make the change and everything breaks.  Still I think
> that is
> >>> the correct way to go and the best that we can do.
> >>>
> >>> - Wes
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Aashish Chaudhary
> >>> <aashish.chaudhary at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> In another email to Wes, I suggested the same. I have cc'd vtkuser's
> >>>> mailing list as well ( to provide background on the topic, may be
> better to
> >>>> start a new thread in the vtkusers mailing list).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Bill Lorensen
> >>>> <bill.lorensen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree with Will. We should ask the community about the impact of a
> >>>>> VTK without tcl.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Will Schroeder
> >>>>> <will.schroeder at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > This may be a bigger issue than just the ARB, I'm wondering if we
> >>>>> > should ask
> >>>>> > the question across the broader community, and/or create an
> explicit
> >>>>> > transition plan.
> >>>>> > W
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Wes Turner <
> wes.turner at kitware.com>
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Changing a few interfaces is manageable.  Removing support for the
> >>>>> >> entire
> >>>>> >> GUI system is much more catastrophic.  If this were a democracy I
> >>>>> >> would
> >>>>> >> stage a filibuster and force a super-majority.  :-)
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> As it is, I will happily abide by any decision by the ARB, but I
> >>>>> >> strongly
> >>>>> >> urge that they make an explicit decision and announce it, rather
> >>>>> >> than just
> >>>>> >> do it by default or allow support to erode away.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> - Wes
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:51 AM, David Cole <
> david.cole at kitware.com>
> >>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I'm not saying that applications like this shouldn't upgrade. On
> >>>>> >>> the
> >>>>> >>> contrary, I think they should, and I think they should do it
> soon,
> >>>>> >>> and give
> >>>>> >>> us feedback on the new layout of modular VTK, and on the rest of
> >>>>> >>> the changes
> >>>>> >>> (legacy code removal), ... other changes?
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I am saying we're making a bunch of changes anyhow, and
> >>>>> >>> applications are
> >>>>> >>> going to have to make lots of changes to adapt to them anyhow...
> >>>>> >>> and because
> >>>>> >>> of this, now is the perfect opportunity to make breaking changes,
> >>>>> >>> so that
> >>>>> >>> apps that need to adapt only need to do it once, and then we
> >>>>> >>> position VTK
> >>>>> >>> for better things in the future. (Specifically, a C++ namespace
> and
> >>>>> >>> potential for more modern wrapped languages.)
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Tcl wrapping, even if removed from VTK itself, could be done in a
> >>>>> >>> separate project, from the outside, after the fact. That's how
> >>>>> >>> ActiViz works
> >>>>> >>> for C# wrapping: which is another thing that will have to adapt
> to
> >>>>> >>> this new
> >>>>> >>> VTK if it wants to survive. To the best of my knowledge, nobody
> has
> >>>>> >>> spent
> >>>>> >>> any effort making sure ActiViz is still going to work flawlessly
> >>>>> >>> with the
> >>>>> >>> new VTK. That'll be something for somebody's to do list after the
> >>>>> >>> dust
> >>>>> >>> settles here.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> This is the one chance we'll have in the next decade to break
> >>>>> >>> backwards
> >>>>> >>> compatibility: we should take it while we have it.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> David C.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Karthik Krishnan
> >>>>> >>> <karthik.krishnan at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I agree with Wes. Again, not to be too vocal....
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I don't vote for  vtk3DWidget being renamed. Despite it being an
> >>>>> >>> old
> >>>>> >>> generation widgets that we don't recommend folks derive from, but
> >>>>> >>> the fact
> >>>>> >>> remains that there are a few widgets in VTK that derive from it.
> >>>>> >>> There are a
> >>>>> >>> lot of widgets in Slicer (<20) and VolView (>10) that derive from
> >>>>> >>> it. These
> >>>>> >>> are examples from just 2 applications.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I don't support Tcl wrapping being dropped. There are still a lot
> >>>>> >>> of apps
> >>>>> >>> under active development out there relying on VTK being wrappable
> >>>>> >>> from Tcl
> >>>>> >>> (BioImageSuite, VolView, SCIRun, MIPS to name a few). It hasn't
> >>>>> >>> been long
> >>>>> >>> since Slicer made the switch either.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> These are all large applications, with a large user base and
> >>>>> >>> important
> >>>>> >>> customers of VTK. Don't you think a stand that: "If these
> >>>>> >>> applications want
> >>>>> >>> to continue using VTK, they shouldn't upgrade" is a bit harsh.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> thx
> >>>>> >>> --
> >>>>> >>> karthik
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:47 AM, David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> And I _will_ add text to the download page to make it clear what
> >>>>> >>>> that
> >>>>> >>>> binary is because you are entirely right that it shouldn't be
> the
> >>>>> >>>> first thing newbies try.
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>>> Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> >>>> R&D Engineer
> >>>>> >>>> 21 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >>>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>>>> >>>> Phone: 518-881-4909
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 4:12 PM, David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>>> <dave.demarle at kitware.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>> > That is an old school 32bit windows tcl interpreter with the
> tcl
> >>>>> >>>> > wrapped vtk libs preloaded. Use it by typing in vtk tcl
> scripts
> >>>>> >>>> > there,
> >>>>> >>>> > or just pass tcl scripts as filenames to that executable to
> run
> >>>>> >>>> > them
> >>>>> >>>> > without the shell. (Back when I was a young lad, and when Will
> >>>>> >>>> > and
> >>>>> >>>> > Bill were still old men, that was the _easy_ way to learn VTK.
> >>>>> >>>> > Ah
> >>>>> >>>> > those were the days, even if we did have to walk five miles in
> >>>>> >>>> > the
> >>>>> >>>> > snow to get to grad school.)
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > My plan for this release is to keep it the same as before. I
> >>>>> >>>> > hope to
> >>>>> >>>> > find the time to make and post the vtkpython equivalent of
> that
> >>>>> >>>> > executable for mac, linux and windows, but I am not going to
> >>>>> >>>> > hold up
> >>>>> >>>> > the release release for them.
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > For 6.0 we at least want the python exes, will probably drop
> the
> >>>>> >>>> > tcl
> >>>>> >>>> > exe, and will try to make a proper SDK so that you don't need
> to
> >>>>> >>>> > compile vtk to make c++ apps that use it.
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > David E DeMarle
> >>>>> >>>> > Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> >>>> > R&D Engineer
> >>>>> >>>> > 21 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>>>> >>>> > Phone: 518-881-4909
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> >
> >>>>> >>>> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:45 PM, David Doria
> >>>>> >>>> > <daviddoria at gmail.com>
> >>>>> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>>> >> On a related note, every Windows user I have suggested VTK to
> >>>>> >>>> >> has
> >>>>> >>>> >> gone
> >>>>> >>>> >> to this page:
> >>>>> >>>> >> http://vtk.org/VTK/resources/software.html#latest2
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> and been extremely confused about what they get with the
> >>>>> >>>> >> "Windows
> >>>>> >>>> >> (Installer) : vtk-5.8.0-win32-x86.exe". I just downloaded and
> >>>>> >>>> >> installed it on a Windows machine, and when I run "VTK" from
> >>>>> >>>> >> the
> >>>>> >>>> >> start
> >>>>> >>>> >> menu (the only thing that appears to be an option), I get a
> >>>>> >>>> >> blank
> >>>>> >>>> >> terminal window and a blank gray widget with no further
> >>>>> >>>> >> instructions/explanation - indeed very confusing!
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> My understanding is that this is some sort of TCL-only binary
> >>>>> >>>> >> package?
> >>>>> >>>> >> My suggestion would be to remove this from the download page
> >>>>> >>>> >> entirely,
> >>>>> >>>> >> or at least bury it so it is not the first thing you see and
> so
> >>>>> >>>> >> it
> >>>>> >>>> >> doesn't look like what you should download as a new user. It
> >>>>> >>>> >> should
> >>>>> >>>> >> be
> >>>>> >>>> >> immediately clear that VTK is intended to be used as a
> library,
> >>>>> >>>> >> not a
> >>>>> >>>> >> standalone application.
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> David
> >>>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>>> >>
> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> --
> >>>>> >>> --
> >>>>> >>> karthik
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> --
> >>>>> >> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
> >>>>> >> Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> >> Technical Leader
> >>>>> >> 28 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>>>> >> Phone: 518-881-4920
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> >> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> >> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > --
> >>>>> > William J. Schroeder, PhD
> >>>>> > Kitware, Inc.
> >>>>> > 28 Corporate Drive
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Clifton Park, NY 12065
> >>>>> > will.schroeder at kitware.com
> >>>>> > http://www.kitware.com
> >>>>> > (518) 881-4902
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Unpaid intern in BillsBasement at noware dot com
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> | Aashish Chaudhary
> >>>> | R&D Engineer
> >>>> | Kitware Inc.
> >>>> | www.kitware.com
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
> >>> Kitware, Inc.
> >>> Technical Leader
> >>> 28 Corporate Drive
> >>> Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> >>> Phone: 518-881-4920
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Powered by www.kitware.com
> >>>
> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >>> http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >>>
> >>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> >>> http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >>>
> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>> http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Wesley D. Turner, Ph.D.
> > Kitware, Inc.
> > Technical Leader
> > 28 Corporate Drive
> > Clifton Park, NY 12065-8662
> > Phone: 518-881-4920
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >
> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >
> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> > http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >
> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> >
>
>
-- 
___________________________________________
Andrew J. P. Maclean

___________________________________________
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