[vtkusers] [vtk-developers] Can we drop Visual Studio 6 support?

David Cole david.cole at kitware.com
Fri Apr 17 16:22:52 EDT 2009 

So, then. How many compilers/platforms would you say it is reasonable to
support? Is there a limit?

My point is that there is a practical limit to the number of
compilers/platforms that a human developer can be reasonably expected to
deal with.... We have already passed that limit and should do *something* to
solve the problem that we currently have: people commit stuff that works
fine for them and then mysteriously (to the committer) does not work on
other compilers/platforms. Nor is there anybody available to ask for help on
a timely basis.

If you have another solution to the problem, I'm all ears. I, personally, am
sick of seeing the red on the dashboard because less than 5% of VTK
developers understand the limitations of VS 6..... Dropping VS 6 seems like
the most painless way to solve the problem to me.


David


On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Bill Lorensen <bill.lorensen at gmail.com>wrote:

> Wow,
>
> Now it's 6,7, and 7.1. David, what other compilers don't you use? With
> ITK, we've had problems with Intel's ICC and SUN's CC.  And the MAC
> had been troublesome. Borland also.
>
> It would be really easy for us developers we could agree on a one compiler.
>
> We're getting anyway are we...
>
> Bill
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:54 PM, David Cole <david.cole at kitware.com>
> wrote:
> > "Cost in dollars and manpower" is indeed exactly the point. Supporting
> "all
> > compilers for all time" is a completely unrealistic goal for any project,
> > yet it is sort of implied just by the way discussions take place on these
> > lists and the platforms that "appear" to be officially supported because
> > they are represented on the nightly dashboards.
> >
> > We cannot keep adding support for new compilers and build systems as they
> > come into existence without dropping older compiler support along the
> way.
> > People have a limited capacity for remembering what code works on what
> > compilers and what versions of STL support what methods.
> >
> > In my opinion, this holds true for VTK/CMake/ParaView and ITK.... all
> > projects, actually.
> >
> > The burden of support for these older systems should fall to the people
> who
> > insist on using them..... yet, it does not. It falls on those of us who
> > actually care about the state of the dashboard ... and unfairly so.
> >
> > My vote would be to say "VTK 5.4 supports back to Visual Studio 6." --
> but
> > for CVS VTK and moving forward, please, please, please, use at least
> Visual
> > Studio 8 or 9. Let's drop 6, 7 and 7.1 support and prepare for Visual
> Studio
> > 10...
> >
> > (Sure to fan the flames, I know.... sorry in advance.)
> >
> > David Cole
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Scott, W Alan <wascott at sandia.gov>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm confused.
> >> Customers would use the pre-compiled binary, wouldn't they?
> >> Anyone that wants to compile ParaView is almost by definition a
> developer.
> >>
> >> Just my own opinion - there is also the issue of cost in dollars and
> >> manpower.  If I had my way, we would be spending our limited resources
> >> cleaning up ParaView for the 3.6 release, working on multi-thread/
> >> multi-core support, informatics, etc.  If someone does want VS 6.0
> support
> >> (or any other support for a 10 year old compiler), maybe either they
> should
> >> pay for it or do it themselves?
> >>
> >> I would vote to get rid of any compilers that are no longer supported.
> >>
> >> Alan
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org
> >> [mailto:vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org] On Behalf Of Bill Lorensen
> >> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:16 PM
> >> To: Pebay, Philippe P
> >> Cc: VTK Developers; VTK Users; Thompson, David C; Berk Geveci
> >> Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Can we drop Visual Studio 6
> >> support?
> >>
> >> I understand your view as a developer. But, this is hard to justify to a
> >> customer.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Pebay, Philippe P <pppebay at sandia.gov>
> >> wrote:
> >> > I think there is a more fundamental reason why we should drop VS 6.0
> >> > support. Being 10 years old, this compiler lacks C++ features which
> >> > developers may want to (and do) use. As a result, we have to write
> more
> >> > complicated or less efficient code. This is not good.
> >> >
> >> > P
> >> > --
> >> > Philippe Pébay
> >> > Sandia National Laboratories
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________________
> >> > From: vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org [vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org]
> >> > On Behalf Of Bill Lorensen [bill.lorensen at gmail.com]
> >> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:35 AM
> >> > To: Thompson, David C
> >> > Cc: VTK Developers; VTK Users; Berk Geveci
> >> > Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Can we drop Visual Studio 6
> >> > support?
> >> >
> >> > With ITK, if we have a VS6 or Borland or mingw or cygwin or VS7 or SUN
> >> > CC or 64 bit ICC or ... problem, we ask someone that has the compiler
> >> > to investigate a fix. Some errors are hard to fix without access to a
> >> > compiler.
> >> >
> >> > If you are still having a problem,  I have a VS6 compiler and can try
> >> > to track it down for you.
> >> >
> >> > Bill
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:19 PM, David Thompson <dcthomp at sandia.gov>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>> What sort of maintenance issues are you having?
> >> >> This type:
> >> >>
> http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/Common/vtkUnicodeString
> >> >> .cxx?view=log There are *many* more examples (perhaps not all as
> >> >> humorously narrated), but the general problem is that the dashboard
> >> >> machines are the only way for many developers to test whether
> >> >> something will work with MSVC6. It can be quite irritating to check
> >> >> in something that should fix a compile problem and have to wait 1-2
> >> >> hours before seeing the result.
> >> >>
> >> >>> I think the real issue is what compilers do the VTK installed base
> >> >>> use? You may have customers that are using 3rd party
> >> >>> drivers/libraries that are VS6. Actually, there is no way to know
> who
> >> >>> the customers are.
> >> >> It would be nice to assume that customers who continue to develop
> >> >> with VTK read at least the digest, but I agree that some may note and
> >> >> it could be some time before we hear from them. I still think it is a
> >> >> good idea to drop VC6 not because it's irritating to debug build
> >> >> problems but because it can lead to obfuscated code as people rewrite
> >> >> bits here and there to accommodate old syntax and broken STL
> >> >> implementations.
> >> >>
> >> >>        David
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Berk Geveci <
> berk.geveci at kitware.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> > Hi folks,
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > We are thinking of dropping support for Visual Studio 6. It is
> >> >>> > causing annoying maintenance issues since no one in the developer
> >> >>> > team uses it and since VS 6 supports only a subset of modern C++
> >> >>> > features. Are there any objects? If yes, I would like to know why.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Best,
> >> >>> > -berk
> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >>
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