[vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Can we drop Visual Studio 6 support?

David Cole david.cole at kitware.com
Fri Apr 17 16:46:57 EDT 2009 

I meant 5% of people who currently have write/commit access to the VTK CVS
repo, not all people who've ever compiled VTK anywhere.
And, yes, I think we should drop AIX and HP support, too. They fall into the
same category as VS 6 : a very small percentage of users use them. VTK is
open source. If somebody wants the support for those platforms, they should
be contributing it, monitoring it *and* maintaining it. As it stands, all of
us are responsible for trying to understand what happens on these platforms
that we would not even care about were it not for the single row they
represent on the VTK dashboard.

I don't know about all the rest of you, but I would much prefer spending my
time on building cool new stuff in VTK than patching the code over and over
again to make it work (again) with crufty old systems.

David


On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Bill Lorensen <bill.lorensen at gmail.com>wrote:

> 5% of how many customers?
>
> A lot of other compilers are producing red results.
>
> And most committers don't have access to the numerous compilers that
> VTK supports. Should we drop AIX, and HP?
>
> Perhaps the solution is to have the community provide builds, both
> nightly and continuous, for these platforms.
>
> So we tell the community, "We will drop the support of compile X
> unless we can get a committment from a customer to provide Nightly and
> Continuous builds."
>
> Bill
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:22 PM, David Cole <david.cole at kitware.com>
> wrote:
> > So, then. How many compilers/platforms would you say it is reasonable to
> > support? Is there a limit?
> >
> > My point is that there is a practical limit to the number of
> > compilers/platforms that a human developer can be reasonably expected to
> > deal with.... We have already passed that limit and should do *something*
> to
> > solve the problem that we currently have: people commit stuff that works
> > fine for them and then mysteriously (to the committer) does not work on
> > other compilers/platforms. Nor is there anybody available to ask for help
> on
> > a timely basis.
> >
> > If you have another solution to the problem, I'm all ears. I, personally,
> am
> > sick of seeing the red on the dashboard because less than 5% of VTK
> > developers understand the limitations of VS 6..... Dropping VS 6 seems
> like
> > the most painless way to solve the problem to me.
> >
> >
> > David
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Bill Lorensen <bill.lorensen at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Wow,
> >>
> >> Now it's 6,7, and 7.1. David, what other compilers don't you use? With
> >> ITK, we've had problems with Intel's ICC and SUN's CC.  And the MAC
> >> had been troublesome. Borland also.
> >>
> >> It would be really easy for us developers we could agree on a one
> >> compiler.
> >>
> >> We're getting anyway are we...
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:54 PM, David Cole <david.cole at kitware.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > "Cost in dollars and manpower" is indeed exactly the point. Supporting
> >> > "all
> >> > compilers for all time" is a completely unrealistic goal for any
> >> > project,
> >> > yet it is sort of implied just by the way discussions take place on
> >> > these
> >> > lists and the platforms that "appear" to be officially supported
> because
> >> > they are represented on the nightly dashboards.
> >> >
> >> > We cannot keep adding support for new compilers and build systems as
> >> > they
> >> > come into existence without dropping older compiler support along the
> >> > way.
> >> > People have a limited capacity for remembering what code works on what
> >> > compilers and what versions of STL support what methods.
> >> >
> >> > In my opinion, this holds true for VTK/CMake/ParaView and ITK.... all
> >> > projects, actually.
> >> >
> >> > The burden of support for these older systems should fall to the
> people
> >> > who
> >> > insist on using them..... yet, it does not. It falls on those of us
> who
> >> > actually care about the state of the dashboard ... and unfairly so.
> >> >
> >> > My vote would be to say "VTK 5.4 supports back to Visual Studio 6." --
> >> > but
> >> > for CVS VTK and moving forward, please, please, please, use at least
> >> > Visual
> >> > Studio 8 or 9. Let's drop 6, 7 and 7.1 support and prepare for Visual
> >> > Studio
> >> > 10...
> >> >
> >> > (Sure to fan the flames, I know.... sorry in advance.)
> >> >
> >> > David Cole
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Scott, W Alan <wascott at sandia.gov>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm confused.
> >> >> Customers would use the pre-compiled binary, wouldn't they?
> >> >> Anyone that wants to compile ParaView is almost by definition a
> >> >> developer.
> >> >>
> >> >> Just my own opinion - there is also the issue of cost in dollars and
> >> >> manpower.  If I had my way, we would be spending our limited
> resources
> >> >> cleaning up ParaView for the 3.6 release, working on multi-thread/
> >> >> multi-core support, informatics, etc.  If someone does want VS 6.0
> >> >> support
> >> >> (or any other support for a 10 year old compiler), maybe either they
> >> >> should
> >> >> pay for it or do it themselves?
> >> >>
> >> >> I would vote to get rid of any compilers that are no longer
> supported.
> >> >>
> >> >> Alan
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org
> >> >> [mailto:vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org] On Behalf Of Bill Lorensen
> >> >> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:16 PM
> >> >> To: Pebay, Philippe P
> >> >> Cc: VTK Developers; VTK Users; Thompson, David C; Berk Geveci
> >> >> Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Can we drop Visual Studio 6
> >> >> support?
> >> >>
> >> >> I understand your view as a developer. But, this is hard to justify
> to
> >> >> a
> >> >> customer.
> >> >>
> >> >> Bill
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Pebay, Philippe P <
> pppebay at sandia.gov>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > I think there is a more fundamental reason why we should drop VS
> 6.0
> >> >> > support. Being 10 years old, this compiler lacks C++ features which
> >> >> > developers may want to (and do) use. As a result, we have to write
> >> >> > more
> >> >> > complicated or less efficient code. This is not good.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > P
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Philippe Pébay
> >> >> > Sandia National Laboratories
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ________________________________________
> >> >> > From: vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org [
> vtk-developers-bounces at vtk.org]
> >> >> > On Behalf Of Bill Lorensen [bill.lorensen at gmail.com]
> >> >> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:35 AM
> >> >> > To: Thompson, David C
> >> >> > Cc: VTK Developers; VTK Users; Berk Geveci
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Can we drop Visual Studio
> 6
> >> >> > support?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > With ITK, if we have a VS6 or Borland or mingw or cygwin or VS7 or
> >> >> > SUN
> >> >> > CC or 64 bit ICC or ... problem, we ask someone that has the
> compiler
> >> >> > to investigate a fix. Some errors are hard to fix without access to
> a
> >> >> > compiler.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If you are still having a problem,  I have a VS6 compiler and can
> try
> >> >> > to track it down for you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bill
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:19 PM, David Thompson <
> dcthomp at sandia.gov>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>> What sort of maintenance issues are you having?
> >> >> >> This type:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/Common/vtkUnicodeString
> >> >> >> .cxx?view=log There are *many* more examples (perhaps not all as
> >> >> >> humorously narrated), but the general problem is that the
> dashboard
> >> >> >> machines are the only way for many developers to test whether
> >> >> >> something will work with MSVC6. It can be quite irritating to
> check
> >> >> >> in something that should fix a compile problem and have to wait
> 1-2
> >> >> >> hours before seeing the result.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> I think the real issue is what compilers do the VTK installed
> base
> >> >> >>> use? You may have customers that are using 3rd party
> >> >> >>> drivers/libraries that are VS6. Actually, there is no way to know
> >> >> >>> who
> >> >> >>> the customers are.
> >> >> >> It would be nice to assume that customers who continue to develop
> >> >> >> with VTK read at least the digest, but I agree that some may note
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> it could be some time before we hear from them. I still think it
> is
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> good idea to drop VC6 not because it's irritating to debug build
> >> >> >> problems but because it can lead to obfuscated code as people
> >> >> >> rewrite
> >> >> >> bits here and there to accommodate old syntax and broken STL
> >> >> >> implementations.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>        David
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Berk Geveci
> >> >> >>> <berk.geveci at kitware.com>
> >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >> >>> > Hi folks,
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > We are thinking of dropping support for Visual Studio 6. It is
> >> >> >>> > causing annoying maintenance issues since no one in the
> developer
> >> >> >>> > team uses it and since VS 6 supports only a subset of modern
> C++
> >> >> >>> > features. Are there any objects? If yes, I would like to know
> >> >> >>> > why.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Best,
> >> >> >>> > -berk
> >> >> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >>> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at
> >> >> >>> > http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
> >> >> >>> > http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
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> >> >> >>> >
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> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
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> >> >>
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> >> >>
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> >> >>
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> >
> >
>
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