<div dir="ltr">Thank you Andras. Happy holidays.<div><br></div><div>-berk</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Andras Lasso <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lasso@queensu.ca" target="_blank">lasso@queensu.ca</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks to all for taking time to consider this. I think in the long term such functionality should be part of VTK, but I understand if there are other priorities
now and I don’t want to take more of your time with discussing this one particular issue.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I hope this request will be revisited in the future, please keep it in mind when other application support features will be integrated into VTK. I’ve entered
a ticket to the issue tracker to make sure it will not be forgotten: <a href="http://vtk.org/Bug/view.php?id=15220" target="_blank">
http://vtk.org/Bug/view.php?id=15220</a>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Andras<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="14a6a90819a490b8__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Berk Geveci [mailto:<a href="mailto:berk.geveci@kitware.com" target="_blank">berk.geveci@kitware.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:49</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> Andras Lasso<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Cole; David Gobbi; Jean-Christophe Fillion-Robin (<a href="mailto:JChris.FillionR@kitware.com" target="_blank">JChris.FillionR@kitware.com</a>); <a href="mailto:vtk-developers@vtk.org" target="_blank">vtk-developers@vtk.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [vtk-developers] Proposal to add "vtkInfoMacro"<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I looked at our current structure and could not find a suitable place that would allow for non-GUI classes to have access to this but not the core classes. It is probably not worth creating a module to just add this header so I recommend
keeping it in Slicer for now.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-berk<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Andras Lasso <<a href="mailto:lasso@queensu.ca" target="_blank">lasso@queensu.ca</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">You are right, it’s not necessary to make this additional logging macro available for core VTK library
modules. It can be anywhere in VTK where VTK tests, examples, and VTK-based applications can access it. Do you have any suggestion for a good place?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Having the macro in VTK allows a standardization on the macro name, parameters, and behavior among
all VTK-based applications. The macro would be used in application classes derived from vtkObject.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Andras</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="14a6a90819a490b8_14a4563b231e3cdf__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Berk Geveci [mailto:<a href="mailto:berk.geveci@kitware.com" target="_blank">berk.geveci@kitware.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 13, 2014 15:16<br>
<b>To:</b> Andras Lasso<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Cole; David Gobbi; Jean-Christophe Fillion-Robin (<a href="mailto:JChris.FillionR@kitware.com" target="_blank">JChris.FillionR@kitware.com</a>);
<a href="mailto:vtk-developers@vtk.org" target="_blank">vtk-developers@vtk.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [vtk-developers] Proposal to add "vtkInfoMacro"<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sorry but I remain unconvinced. I haven't heard a compelling reason why this functionality should be available to core VTK modules and why the maintainers of those modules need
to worry about it. So far, the only example is for a class in Slicer.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Whether this is in a separate header or not, putting it in Common/Core will make it possible for all modules in VTK to use this functionality without any compile errors. As I mentioned,
I'd like to see functionality migrate out of Common/Core to outer modules not vice versa. "There are other application-only functions in Common already" is not a good reason why we should cram more in there. Also, vtkOutputWindow is used for VTK-level functionality
such as debugging and error reporting. Similar to vtkDebugLeaks. I wouldn't call that application specific.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-berk<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Andras Lasso <<a href="mailto:lasso@queensu.ca" target="_blank">lasso@queensu.ca</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="14a6a90819a490b8_14a4563b231e3cdf_14a44816fe26603e__MailE"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yes, sure we don’t need VTK to include a complete
logging framework such as log4cpp. We just need a convenient mechanism to send messages to logging frameworks from VTK.</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">What do you think about the following?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">* Allow completely disable vtkInfoMacro by an #ifdef (for example, if #ifndef VTK_INFO_ENABLED then
vtkInfoMacro is an empty statement; we can set VTK_INFO_ENABLED to false by default)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">* Put the macro in a separate header in Common/vtkInfo.h to not make the macro visible to VTK classes
by default. GUISupport directory would be too restrictive, as logging is not related to GUI and there are other application-only functions in Common already (such as vtkOutputWindow::DisplayText), but any other suggestion is welcome.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Andras</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> David Cole [mailto:<a href="mailto:DLRdave@aol.com" target="_blank">DLRdave@aol.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 13, 2014 09:28<br>
<b>To:</b> David Gobbi<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Berk Geveci; <a href="mailto:vtk-developers@vtk.org" target="_blank">vtk-developers@vtk.org</a>; Andras Lasso</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [vtk-developers] Proposal to add "vtkInfoMacro"<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with Berk. VTK should NOT include the kitchen sink... This belongs elsewhere -- there are whole separate libraries that are actually focused on logging, and doing it in
a high performance, high functionality manner. log4cpp, g2log, and boost all come to mind.<br>
<br>
Great to hear talk of testing performance regressions on the dashboard -- looking forward to the day that's a reality.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thx,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David C.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On Friday, December 12, 2014, David Gobbi <<a href="mailto:david.gobbi@gmail.com" target="_blank">david.gobbi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well, vtkImageReslice is probably not the best "speed" example any more, it has become fat with all the features that I've added to it over the years :) And in the old days, a
big reason for its speed was that it did some bit-twiddling to work around the disastrously slow floor() operations on old CPUs.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, it is certainly true with modern computer architectures, with their multiple cores and fast caches, doing _any_ application-level or system-level operations within the
algorithmic code causes a significant performance hit, because that takes the CPU core out of the "zone" where it can work at its full potential.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> - David<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Berk Geveci <<a href="mailto:berk.geveci@kitware.com" target="_blank">berk.geveci@kitware.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'd be fine with it if the header is put into a higher level module such as GUISupport and has some examples demonstrating its purpose and some documentation providing a guide on
how to use it. I would not agree to putting this at a place where it may encourage folks to use it in algorithms and other core functionality. As I mentioned previously, I already have the unpleasant job of ripping out a number of "convenience" functionality
that are going to have significant impact on performance as we continue to multi-thread more algorithms. All of these features look harmless when initially added. Then they find their way into core functionality slowly but surely. When you are considering
200-way parallelism (which we are, since we are porting to Intel Xeon Phi already), any little bit makes a difference. Some simple examples:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* Garbage collection<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* vtkDataArrayTemplate::DataChanged()<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* Abundant use of Modified()<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* Progress reporting<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very nice and convenient feature. They may lead to a code running more slowly as more threads are added rather than scale up.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don't agree that misuse of such features would get caught in reviews. Very few reviewers are conscious of potential performance issues. Because very few developers are performance
conscious at this point (Dave Gobbi excepted, he writes amazingly fast code, see image reslice).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So this is not the time to pepper core classes with convenience functionality. It is time to simplify and come with very clear guidelines on what core classes and algorithms can
and cannot do. Once the development community becomes more aware of these issues and our dashboards are able to catch performance regressions, we can relax some.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-berk<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 9:52 AM, David Gobbi <<a href="mailto:david.gobbi@gmail.com" target="_blank">david.gobbi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, I have reservations about putting this macro in vtkSetGet.h. If it goes in its own header, then the chances of it being confused with vtkDebugMacro are significantly reduced.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"> - David</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Andras Lasso <<a href="mailto:lasso@queensu.ca" target="_blank">lasso@queensu.ca</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I completely agree with David. This is an application support feature. There are several examples for
such features in VTK, including QVTKWidget or vtkOutputWindow::DisplayText(). These are not meant to be used in VTK library itself (other than examples and tests) but in VTK-based applications. They make the life of application developers easier, allow standardization,
reduces code/feature duplication.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Adding the macro has negligible impact on VTK but would help application developers.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Andras</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="14a6a90819a490b8_14a4563b231e3cdf_14a44816fe26603e_14a419"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> David Gobbi [<a href="mailto:david.gobbi@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:david.gobbi@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 12, 2014 09:16<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vtk-developers@vtk.org" target="_blank">vtk-developers@vtk.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jean-Christophe Fillion-Robin; Berk Geveci; Andras Lasso<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [vtk-developers] Proposal to add "vtkInfoMacro"</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On the one hand, I can see that it is useful to have a message macro that doesn't require a debug build. In my own apps, I often write app-specific classes that are derived from
vtkObject and this is a macro that I might use from time to time. Unlike Berk, I'm not all that worried that it might be abused. For VTK, we have code review.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On the other hand, I don't think we have a use case for this within VTK itself, it would be there purely to serve external VTK classes and apps. And people who need this feature
could simply put this macro (or a similar one) in their own header files.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Summary: this is a convenience feature, IMHO a mostly harmless one, and one that I might use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> - David<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 6:27 AM, Berk Geveci <<a href="mailto:berk.geveci@kitware.com" target="_blank">berk.geveci@kitware.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I disagree with this change. There is no compelling VTK specific example for why this is needed. The examples are all from Slicer - which to me says that they can be implemented
in Slicer.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Adding a logging functionality without clear guidelines on how to use it is dangerous. It can lead to folks using it for debugging in performance critical sections and since it
is not compiled out in Release builds, it can lead to significant performance issues, specially in multi-threaded code. As it is, there are lot of minor issues like this that we will have to go and clean up (progress being one of them).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The main use case seems to be tracking interaction/workflow changes. My suggestion is to employ a method appropriate to that. For example, events and listeners.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-berk<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Jean-Christophe Fillion-Robin <<a href="mailto:jchris.fillionr@kitware.com" target="_blank">jchris.fillionr@kitware.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Folks,
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">While developing 3D Slicer, we created a macro named
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vtkInfoMacro<br>
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similar to "vtkErrorMacro/vtkDebugMacro/vtkWarningMacro".<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We would like to contribute it back to VTK core.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The associated topic is:
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<a href="http://review.source.kitware.com/#/c/18385/" target="_blank">
http://review.source.kitware.com/#/c/18385/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">It would be great to get feedback before moving forward.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Jc</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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